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Old 10-04-05, 01:27 AM   #1
mysticfire
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Red face Binary Soul Doctrine

I'm reading a book on the binary soul doctrine by Peter Novak. It's an interesting concept but is entirely disheartening to me. In summary, our incarnation here is comprised of the physical body, a soul and a spirit. I might get this a bit mixed up but the soul has intellect and energy and the spirit houses our emotions and experiences. Upon death these two parts separate. Aparantly, the part that gives us our emotions and experiences is lost to us and our existence after death is somewhat questionable until we reincarnate. I've probably glossed over the idea a bit but hope you get the idea. I find the concept of our emotional spirit disintegrating entirely frightening. Maybe it's a fantasy but I've become more comfortable with the thought that our soul which includes our spirit, emotions, memories and experience lives on.

I'm a little disturbed by the binary soul doctrine but, I can't ignore some of the information provided in support (e.g., some NDEs report going to a black peaceful emotionless place while some report going to the light). I had a NDE in which I went to the black place. There was no pain, there was no worry, just peace. There also was no light or anything else. The thing I do very distinctly remember is the fact that I still existed. I did not distintigrate. As I sat in this dark and peaceful place, I remember that I did not have the emotions I thought I would about being where I was - I sort of felt like - Okay - so, now what?" But, emotional thoughts did start coming back to me "the kids need you, yes it's peaceful here but the baby needs you." No sooner had the thoughts finished than I was back in the real world-hearing the doctor say "we've got her."

My own experience cannot dispell the concept of Binary Soul Doctrine entirely but I have a thought and maybe others might as well. I believe we have many levels of consciousness. Our higher self remains unincarnated. Our consciousness and subconsciousness incarnates with us. I believe the Binary Soul Doctrine may have merit but perhaps it is only one step in a larger process. If we lose a part of our consciousness that represents our memories and experiences, that would seem logical because when we reincarnate, we do not have full capacity of our past life memories. With some folks, you have spontaneous recollection of past lives out of the blue or stumble upon them under hypnosis. That, to me says that if the soul does split some how, it must be reconnected when you reincarnate.

The idea of obliteration at death (which is not entirely what is promoted in this book) was unsettling to me. Before I read this book, I didn't fear death. I felt like life had a bigger purpose and meaning and that we continue to incarnate, learn, love and grow forever. At my core, this thought still resonates as truth but this other concept and the supporting information scares me a bit.

I'm only half way through the book but I just wondered if anyone else had heard about this or had experiences they could share. I have had both spontaneous past life memories as well as some under hypnosis, to me - either my subconscious is really tricky or there is more to life and the beyond than separation of our emotions and our intellect at death.
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Old 10-04-05, 01:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
You quoted:
Aparantly, the part that gives us our emotions and experiences is lost to us and our existence after death is somewhat questionable until we reincarnate.

Do we really know what the afterlife has in store for us?
You know, sometimes reading such a book can have quite the opposite effect in that it reinstates our own beliefs with much more vigour. Not always will we read a book we agree with. There have been literary works I too have read with some measure of unacceptance, as it totally opposed certain ethics I myself held dear. As long as we bear in mind that whatever we do read, we absorb the words of another. This other is but a being just like you and me, with personal opinions, intellect and viewpoints.

The problem occurs when reading a book is that many of us slip into an altered state of mind, which in itself is vulnerable to suggestion. This is so because our subconscious minds start to come to the fore whilst reading, and readily take in everything it is being dished.
It would then be up to us to allow our conscious minds in turn to annihilate that information by blatantly observing the contradiction it brings to our own beliefs and points of views.

When it comes to matters of soul and of spirit, we can only grasp as straws in our attempt to adhere to our understandings with as much sense as it takes in order for us to reach some level of acceptance.
There are those who claim that spirit and soul are but one and the same thing. Others in turn believe that soul is the incarnated version of spirit, whilst the opposite has also been heard in that it is soul that is discarnate and spirit is incarnate. Here we again deal with semantics of what is soul and what is spirit.
The most important aspect however, I believe, is that most of us believe in a certain part of ourselves which is not quite of this world irrespective of what we appellate it.


Quote:
You wrote:
I remember that I did not have the emotions I thought I would about being where I was - I sort of felt like - Okay - so, now what?" But, emotional thoughts did start coming back to me "the kids need you, yes it's peaceful here but the baby needs you." No sooner had the thoughts finished than I was back in the real world-hearing the doctor say "we've got her."

Emotion in turn has caused some dispute in its own right, in so far, that some understand this emotion to belong exclusively to the conscious ego orientated human, and thus take it to be a subject belonging to the reasoning mind. Emotion, it has been found is the translation of our thoughts, for it has been said that we will feel (emote) in accordance to how we think. That is why, with angry thoughts, we erupt in anger. With loving thoughts, we divulge in love.

Then again, there also exists a possibility that without emotion we would not be able to experience soul. Perhaps we should examine more closely the difference between ego (physical) emotion and soul emotion. For where one attaches one to longings and wants the other expresses itself in quite the opposite way. For some it becomes an entirely different topic to chat about compassion without detachment, for they readily state and argue that one just cannot be compassionate without being attached to the source of the compassion. And yet, - compassion of the highest kind is quite possible whilst remaining in complete DE-tachment to the origin or the source deserving the compassion. Looking at it more closely, is it not our attachment that allows us to become involved in a more personal manner, whilst we feel sorrow or bliss for the subject of our compassion. What then is this sorrow and bliss but a fulfillment of our own emotion which really does nothing towards assisting the object of our compassion.
A perfect example of such sorrow or bliss can be found in a victim of circumstance who for instance would not be feeling sorry for themselves, but rather is filled with courage to overcome their situation, whilst we the onlooker thinking to be of compassionate heart, are filled with sorrow at their plight. Our sorrow in itself, in no means nor ways is of any assistance to the betterment of the victim, quite on the contrary!.
Soul emotion also is very closely linked to spontaneity, where the aspect of thought is not calculated not reasoned. (this invariably excludes the human ego)

The above merely to elaborate on the nature of emotion as I understand it.


Quote:
You shared:
My own experience cannot dispell the concept of Binary Soul Doctrine entirely but I have a thought and maybe others might as well. I believe we have many levels of consciousness. Our higher self remains unincarnated. Our consciousness and subconsciousness incarnates with us.


If we take a look at the humankind in a global manner, we find that some of us humans are quite barbaric (in accordance to our own terms) whilst others are inspired in a more peaceful and loving way. We also find certain wisdom in some, and a severe lack of wisdom in others. The same goes for the understanding, or indeed lack of understanding some humans have towards situations, and fellow humans. This all leads us to recognize that we each one of us are on different levels. What creates these levels again is quite an elaborate topic, as aspects such as intelligence, upbringing and experience (to name but a few) can be of quite some influence. From this perhaps we can draw a conclusion that the soul awareness of one person may or may not be akin to the soul awareness of the next person.
Would we all, for instance, avail ourselves to a similar task as did Mother Teresa? Those in pursuit of increased soul consciousness and soul awareness acutely are conscious of the fact that there is no end to the amount of progression one can make. They thus end up believing that it all has to do with soul and spirit.
From what you have offered, would it make sense to you to investigate the possibility that our subconsciousness is that part of our spirit which has incarnated. Then again, we need to dig a little deeper into what this subconsciousness really is for could we then also not claim that within our own subconsciousness in turn are levels of higher and lower order. We have heard of those explaining about the higher self which resides in the higher dimensions. Perhaps all these dimensions really are within us, and available to us yet, we cannot access one without having progressed through the other. Which is why some claim that we need to learn whilst incarnated. This learning entails raising our awareness in order for us to become more spiritual, and thus more able to access those higher levels of awareness and consciousness.


Quote:
You explained:
I believe the Binary Soul Doctrine may have merit but perhaps it is only one step in a larger process. If we lose a part of our consciousness that represents our memories and experiences, that would seem logical because when we reincarnate, we do not have full capacity of our past life memories. With some folks, you have spontaneous recollection of past lives out of the blue or stumble upon them under hypnosis. That, to me says that if the soul does split some how, it must be reconnected when you reincarnate.

Again, much has been debated on the topic of reincarnation and on the topic of hypnosis. Hypnosis is not a proven medium into the establishing of correctness of information for it has been claimed oft, and proven many a time that hypnosis is subject to suggestion. Frightening as it may seem we ourselves often end up sending suggestive information to our own subconscious minds, and then promptly believe that what we experience during moments of subconscious contact is absolute fact. We on a daily basis influence our own subconscious minds in a highly suggestive manner via our own thoughts and our own conscious beliefs. (This by the way is how fear is created and nourished we are the ones responsible for our own feelings and notions of fear, having in a subliminal manner ingrained that notion into our subconscious minds)


Quote:
You said:
The idea of obliteration at death (which is not entirely what is promoted in this book) was unsettling to me. Before I read this book, I didn't fear death. I felt like life had a bigger purpose and meaning and that we continue to incarnate, learn, love and grow forever. At my core, this thought still resonates as truth but this other concept and the supporting information scares me a bit.

I am so sorry to hear of the ramifications this book has had on you. Please do not let it get to you, and above all, this I ask of you, stand tall and firm in what you yourself believe in for there is no saying at all that the author is correct in his (or her) statements, just as little as there may be any ground beneath anything I have been writing in this post. Hence the very great importance that we stick to our own beliefs in such a manner as to comfort us and to bring us understanding. Of course it becomes quite interesting and intriguing, as a possible means to expansion and understanding, to investigate the thoughts and beliefs of others but let us not allow these thoughts and beliefs to become our undoing.


In Peace,
quinte
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Old 10-04-05, 04:15 PM   #3
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Hello Mysticfire,

Thank you for raising some aspects of souls nature up to discussion, which mankind probably have pondered on since dawn, but are not so easily discussed. You present to us a very good point of entry by doing this. We all have the opportunity to gain deeper understanding when sharing disheartening thoughts, as you have done here. Then we may resolve what appear confusing, and be more able to choose in accord with our chosen values and paths - while we are here.

You have given us some different clues to your feelings of disturbance, too, so I guess some of the answers you may get to your post, will be very informative in various ways.

Our beliefs make us able to share thoughts about what is happening to us after leaving our bodies behind. How are these beliefs made up? How are they assembled - so to speak? You touch upon characteristics of us, that may contribute in various ways to this belief.

I have not read this book you refer to, so I cannot analyze it in any way. But your thoughts seem to have caught some elements presented in it, that may not fit entirely into your own understanding of life. Could it be, that some deeper reason why you have written this post, is that what you have read do not entirely 'match' (or what I like to call: "resonnate") with your own understanding or feelings about how thing are connected?

Yet - you have engaged your own fears because of this book, as if you already have judged you own comprehensions as of lesser value. May I spur you to re-value your own understanding, as this is of utmost importance to the choices you make in your own life. Seeking deeper knowledge should not mean that we throw away our best alternative.

If we were left with only imagination in our venture to gather thoughts about our souls' journey after passing, there would be countless possibilities to describe. One of these possibilities is obviously presented in this book. We see that different possibilities have indeed been differently emphasized among people up through the ages. So I guess we may safely claim, that imagination has been a very dominant feature in mankinds views on the nature of soul.

As we have progressed, our reliance on our physical senses has become all-important for our survival, behaviour, and communications. Our emotions (like your fears) have played a central role in this. Their role is to engage our behaviour when encountering different situations. They also play an important part in projecting (future imaginative) goals, wishes, expectations, and situations. They give us reasons to choose and engage, and they point to challenges and make us able to solve problems at hand, in every situation conceivable. There are even instances where we could find reasons to consider our emotional capability as a sense in itself. They are integrated with our senses, so to speak - with our physical bodies. Considering how far mankind has traversed in time and space, this capability has served us well.

We are able to choose - not only our own specific behaviour - but also which scenario we wish to follow in our imagination. And our emotions can be equally engaged in these choices. So it would be wrong to narrow our emotions to our senses only. We all see that. They can be very central to our choosing ability.

Before a choice is made within the individual, there is a ranking process among the outcomes of different possible behaviours, where the better outcome is preferred according to goals and consciously selected standards (ethics).

Our imagination enable us to compare our emotions in the outcome of a situation, with the emotions connected to another situation - where different choices has been made. When we behave (or communicate) due to this difference between an imagined situation and what actually has transpired, it is essentially the same as exercised judgement.

So, the moment behaviour is exercised according to choice, the choice may simply be considered a judgement between alternatives. But in this, there is reason to claim that judgement may be a judgement of emotions, not behaviours - as emotion can be the ranking tool between imagined alternatives before the choice (behaviour) is made.

We learn to distinguish between different alternatives of behaviour early on in our lives, so this process of ranking emotions - tied to imaginative situations - can be considered highly automatic, or even instinctive. We may learn to choose, not only actions, but also our beliefs by habit. And this can be a serious trap.

By being an integrated part of our physical makeup, it seems like our emotions may not be so well suited for some tasks; like assessing our thoughts on soul's makeup and adventure after that passing, when body is left behind. Yet - we see that this is the case over and over, all over the world.

We may wish to enclose in this view of soul the very peak of bliss, that we may have experienced while being here in our bodies. By judging our emotions - while considering an imaginative future after the passing of body - we may have difficulties to think that lesser states of bliss is the reality for soul. And how can we by emotions assess bliss, greater than experienced? Maybe we need to ensure that our comparison of emotions are not interferring with our understanding of soul?

Our soul awareness and sense of identity may become somewhat static, if our (automatic?) judging of own emotions become the condition for our comprehension, awareness, and appreciation (reverence) of our own soul. Shall we really use our emotions as the tool to assess the nature of our spirits, then? In what degree do emotions determine our beliefs?

Now - emotions may actually play a completely different role in our lives, too. They may be our souls' way to make us aware and behave with what may be considered an external impulse in the situation at hand (the context). This may be triggered by interaction between mind and soul. Or perhaps our emotions are soul's gateway, so to speak, into our minds? This is according to the view, that at the foundation of every action, there is an emotional trigger. This may make it even more necessary to come to understand ones own emotions, I think, to be able to discern their origins.

Some may even find their emotions engaged, and deem these thoughts and questions provoking. May I point to the necessity of being openminded and tolerant, while exchanging views on the nature of personal beliefs. These are just some views or aspects presented, that may enable some further thoughts in another. When shared, they may bring us a little closer to understanding the choices we face, before passing the veil.

And Mysticfire; thank you again, for giving us this opening to discuss the matters touched upon.


With love,
Joe


P.S.: I have not read Quinte's reply to your post, yet, as I have been busy writing on this one. Perhaps I find the impulse to come up with another post, after having reading her views on the matters? (- that lady usually is quite indepth, you know... )
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Old 10-04-05, 04:25 PM   #4
mysticfire
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Default Voice of Reason

Ahhh, the voice of reason!!!! Thank you. I so appreciate the thoughts and reading does bring me back to my own thoughts posted elsewhere regarding provisional truths and the fact that everything is yes, no and maybe. My truth may not be another's and another's truth, while equally valid, may not be my own.

I find it infinitely interesting that every thing we do comes back to an interesting trinity. The elements are "spirituality" (or for some religion), "psychology" and then "philosophy." It seems all of our gifts and curses, saving graces and destructions come from one of these 3 sources. Behind each of these 3 is an entire universe of meaning there are no words to describe. I thought about these three things a little yesterday while contemplating whether or not I would finish the book. For reasons based in psychology, we need to uncover "truth" and put it out there as the only truth. For reasons of "spirituality" or religion, we feel the need to save others or ourselves. For the reasons related to "philosophy" we maintain our curiousity. As I type this now, I can feel these three elements converging into a single element = "truth" and the need to define it, uncover it and get the masses to buy into it.

I'm not sure why, don't know that I want to know why. I guess I'm struggling to just find my own truth, be comfortable with that and be comfortable with the fact that my own truth is provisional.

I guess beneath it all we all want to know the meaning of life not just incarnate but generally speaking. The thing that gives me the greatest hope in life is that we continue to learn and grow and that more and more each day I hear more individuals speaking out in tolerance and acceptance concerning "spiritual" and "religious" truths. It sort of helps take the sting out of the thousands of years mankind has spent killing those who would not buy into a certain truth.

I'm feeling a lot better about going back to my basic beliefs. Which most definately include the fact that many truths are valid but that does not mean that all truths are shared by all and that fact doesn't make another's truth false, it's just that some truth's don't resonate with each individual soul.

Thank you so much Quinte!!!!
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Old 10-04-05, 04:47 PM   #5
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Default Yet another light in the darkness!

Joe, thank you also for your wise words as well!

You hit on something big for me with a fear. My greatest fear is that this [life] is all for nothing. We live to the best of our ability, try our best to help others, do the right thing, learn to love and play nice with others in the sand box and then, one day, our body gives out and we're gone. I have always feared at that moment, we cease to exist - even though the truth that resonates in my heart and is confirmed by physics (energy is not obliterated) is that our souls live on.

I've had a tough week. I sought to conquer another silly fear last week that had a relevant theme...Until last week, I hadn't been on an airplane for 13 years. For a year in preparation for flight, I studied aero mechanics, how the planes were built, what they were meant to tolerate, every element of take off, flight and landing. But, while I was up in the air, knowing I was totally safe - everything that was going on (turbulence and all) were completely normal, a fear arose so great that I felt like I could not contain it.

Long story short - even though we think we know something is true, sometimes we respond based on fear contrary to our beliefs seemingly involuntarily. The truth in both of the above situations for me was that even though I knew the plane was safe and even though I'm pretty comfortable with the soul's continued existence, there is still a shadow of a doubt based on reality. The reality is the plane can crash. It usually doesn't but it could. With life after death, all we have is what we read, what we're told and what we may have experienced. But, we still could be wrong. We don't want to be wrong.

I didn't want to reject the book's hypothesis outright without considering the possibilities. But then it dawned on me that the author's truth and my own - both equally valid, may be a part of something larger we've not really considered. Even with an NDE, the process may be entirely different when it's not the trial run it seems to be. I think the comparrison of my own experience with NDE may be what rattled me the most. There was no tunnel with light at the end - just peaceful darkness - comforting darkness. It wasn't bad, just not what I had thought. But then again, the doctor told me I flatlined only for a few minutes. Could be that what I experienced was a very small part of a larger process. All the details and the evidence in the book could have been provided by people, who like me, had only initiated but not actually undertaken the process of true and complete soul/body separation. That seems the most logical to me (thinking more logically than emotionally after reading the posts from Joe and Quinte-HUGE THANKS).

Logically, with all the information we have and all the information that resonates with me it's still yes, no and maybe with all of the truths out there on this subject. I'm okay with that. My own beliefs and truths are solid but I am always open to augmentation. New information can always change one's beliefs of truths. A wise person must consider before rejecting another perspective is what my Dad always said. Very wise man - the fact that I can still talk to him from the otherside further strengthen's my beliefs that we don't disintigrate after death. He doesn't come to me emotionless and all intellect like half of what made him - him is gone - it's my dad, smiling, loving, warm and wonderful as ever. That helps too.

Thank you Joe and Quinte for providing just the right information, in just the right manner at just the right time. You truly made a difference!

Love and light to both of you.
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Old 24-05-06, 02:55 AM   #6
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Default Don;t Worry

Mysticfire
I spent about a year on Peters forum. His work and his study comes from an intilectual point of view. One of the things that did not set well with me was his belief that we need to build up oue ego and make it stronger. That is a big red flag to me. He is right that there is a split in us as human beings. I just do not think that he has the split in the right place.
If it brings up fear in you then the teaching most likely is not from the creator. Fear is of the ego.
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Old 23-07-06, 10:39 PM   #7
greg.gourdian
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Default Just the word doctrine...

Hi Mysticfire!
Ishtahota sees a red flag in Peter's exaltation of the ego.

I see a red flag in the use of the word doctrine.

Peter is trying to sell something by using the word doctrine, he wants to impart that what he says has religious value, and as wonderful as religions can be in certain respects, they are also a lot of <expletive censored, rhymes with 'it'>!

So please, take everyone's advice here and dismiss those parts of the book which you feel out-of-sorts with..

Is binary even really a valid model for what we are? How limiting. No, I think it is rather that the author, over-whelmed by his fascination with his subject, has tried to reduce it to a more managable concept. His own intellectual limits have led him into errors of assumption or reductionism in order to reduce a threatening experience to one that is more managable.

What is the threatening experience?

The author exalts their ego and urges you to do the same, but the ego is a fragile thing of immense power. The ego is fragile in that it cannot readily accept anything that challenges it or contradicts it. So when Peter urges you to build your ego he is urging you to become more fragile and vulnerable in a manner that can only lead to self destruction.

This path leads to self destruction because our ego becomes a blockage on our spiritual journey that impairs our vision and limits our potential. We become over-attached to our egos, but we must often tear them down to get a clearer view and release us from negativity that binds us up and prevents us from growing. So when we go about our ego-dissolving work we often respond with fear and anxiety and it seems as if we are destroying ourselves in the process, when really we are only reducing our ego to prevent it from spoiling our potential to grow and enjoy the world around us.

The more we resist the work on our ego the more traumatic and frightening the results tend to be.

So yes, this book should be disturbing to you. You sense that something is wrong but perhaps are lured in by the security the author tries to scam you with, namely that your ego needs to be developed.

It is the author, whose ego is threatened by his own work, who has mistakenly concluded that his ego must be preserved and aggrandized. Perhaps he will recant, if his ego will ever alloow it.

Meanwhile, there may be gems to find within his work in spite of apparent errors that may have flawed it. So take from the book whatever your heart will allow, and be grateful to know or have an intuition that you are also being scammed.

From your many posts I see you have wonderful properties that help to guide yourself and others on a spiritual path. Thank you for your presence and contributions Mysticfire.

Perhaps you should reread the appellation you have given yourself. For the true mystic fire of the alchemists was that transformational knowledge whereby the ego is dissolved to allow us all to learn and to grow.

, Greg
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Old 09-10-06, 03:08 AM   #8
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Greg and Ishta...thank you so much for your support. I appreciate it so much. I keep that book on my shelf as a reminder every time I see it to remember its okay not to accept concepts that do not resonate with me. I always try to discern what is my lack of knowledge versus the concepts that just don't resonate as truth to me.

After reading hundreds of books, I've come up with one conclusion...when the ego is out of balance in any situation we've got a personal problem. When the ego is in balance with the soul, we've got defense mechanisms well placed and healthy. After giving time and thought to the issue, I just cannot comprehend how the drive and love a soul holds is diminished as mere ego that falls away at the time of death. I'm no expert by any means but the little bit of work I've done as a medium tells me that the experience and drive in a soul, the inherant love and personality are also in tact as physical life departs. That alone should have been the deciding factor in whether to let the book reinforce a fear I held at the time of reading.

I'm greatful for the opportunity to have learned such amazing lessons from that book at many levels. I may still hold fears of the unknown but in time I will learn or at least accept the fact that I cannot know what I don't know and still be okay.

Thank you also for the kind words. You humble me.

Be well and have a wonderful week.

Mysticfire

Again, thank you both for sharing your perspectives. It means a lot to me.

Love and light to you both.
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